Midlife Academies: Redefining Career Transitions and Retirement

Image Source: AI Generated via Canva

As people live longer, healthier lives, the concept of a linear career and traditional retirement is breaking down. This episode focuses on the rise of Midlife Academies, structured, cohort-based learning opportunities designed to help people in midlife and beyond navigate major transitions and find renewed purpose. Sue and Raakhee welcome Kate Schaefers, Director of the Midlife Academy and the Osher Lifelong Learning Institute at the University of Minnesota, to discuss this growing trend.

Kate Schaefers explains that the traditional "three boxes of life" (learn, earn, retire) no longer fit modern life, leading to systemic needs that individuals often mistake for personal failure. She details how universities—with their existing building blocks for exploration and learning—are uniquely suited to host Midlife Academies. The episode highlights how these academies create a supportive community, offer a new lens on challenges, and encourage participants to embrace "encore adulthood". The discussion concludes with practical advice on not going it alone, and the power of taking small, experimental steps into the next chapter.

From Midlife Crisis to Encore Adulthood: Why Universities Are Launching Academies for Your Next Chapter

The traditional "three boxes of life"—learn, work, retire—no longer fit the reality of the modern professional. With longer, healthier lifespans, midlife is no longer a wind-down period but a pivotal time for reinvention. For educated professionals, particularly women aged 35 and over grappling with the feeling of a career plateau or a search for deeper meaning, this transition can feel isolating and challenging.

The good news is that institutions are finally catching up. Across the country, major universities are launching Midlife Academies—structured, cohort-based programs designed to provide the roadmaps and community that professionals need for their "next chapter".

The Rise of the Midlife Academy

Universities are uniquely positioned to host these programs because they already possess all the necessary building blocks for navigating a major life transition. The person in their 40s or 50s asking, "What do I want to do with the rest of my life?" is posing the same fundamental question as an 18-year-old on campus.

Leading institutions like Stanford, Harvard, Notre Dame, and the University of Texas, Austin, have established successful programs. These often involve residential, nine-month programs where experienced professionals are embedded in the classroom alongside young adults. This intergenerational learning often breaks down stereotypes, as older adults are impressed by the passion of young adults, and both enhance each other’s perspectives.

The University of Minnesota's Midlife Academy, directed by Kate Schaefers, is an example of an emerging model focused on accessibility. Recognizing that many working adults cannot uproot their lives for nine months:

• It is a commuter program, with classes meeting in person on campus after work.

• It offers shorter courses, like the eight-week "Cultivating Purpose" and "Next Chapter Reset," making it more affordable and flexible.

• The cohort-based learning model provides a transformative community where peers can find validation, new connections, a fresh lens on their situation, and support in their journey.

Changing the Language: From Crisis to "Encore Adulthood"

The language surrounding midlife—from the dreaded "crisis" to "retirement"—is out of date and often carries connotations of frailty or a final stop. Professor Phyllis Moen, a sociologist at the University of Minnesota, argues that we need new language and frameworks to understand this as a distinct life stage.

She calls this period "Encore Adulthood". This phase is defined as the time between traditional career and family-building years and the frailty of old age. This mid-period is where much of the longevity is being gained. The term encapsulates a time for:

• Renewal and Purpose: Living a life that is very different from previous generations, where people start new careers and become entrepreneurs.

• Financial Reality: This life stage will be particularly critical for Millennials and Gen X, who often face high student loans and delayed milestones, and will likely not have the finances to fund a 30-year leisure retirement, necessitating alternatives to traditional retirement.

  
  

Your Practical Roadmap for Transition

The key takeaway for professionals is that navigating midlife transition is a systemic challenge, not a personal failure. The path to "Encore Adulthood" relies on experimentation and community.

Practical Steps to Start Your Pivot Now:

1. Don't Go It Alone: It's too easy to get stuck in your own head. Seek out community, whether through an academy, a coach, or a support group, to get new perspectives and process your feelings out loud.

2. Embrace Experimentation: You do not have to have it all figured out to start. The research shows that seeking the "perfect" answer can lead to reflection paralysis. Instead, take a small step—a "baby step"—in the right direction. Try a new activity, shift your network, or take on a stretch assignment.

3. Prioritize Joy and Play: Midlife is often a low point on the happiness curve due to overwhelming demands. Intentionally look for what brings you joy and "whimsy". Don't be afraid to take a risk and stumble; failure is simply learning.

By normalizing the conversation around continuous career evolution and seeking support from new models like the Midlife Academy, professionals can transform their midlife questions into a proactive, purposeful next chapter.

Learn More:

• https://ccaps.umn.edu/midlife-academy

• https://ext.csuci.edu/programs/osher-lifelong-learning-institute/

• https://thenexel.org/advisory-bios-2024

Episode Transcript:

Sue: (00:00)

Welcome to Signal Shift. This is Sue and I've got Raakhee here with me and we are deep into our theme of the future of learning. one topic that has come up this month and actually in episodes past has been this idea that we are all living longer and hopefully healthier lives. So we're really needing to rethink this issue of retirement. So instead of preparing for a wind down, people in midlife and beyond are thinking more about what comes next. We've talked about this desire for more purpose, more connection and meaning. And so to address this issue, we're focusing today on the rise of the Midlife Academy. And for the most part, from what we've seen, these are kind of structured cohort-based learning opportunities really designed for the specific transition.

The Midlife Academy at the University of Minnesota is one example of this, and we are very excited to welcome our guest today, who's the Academy's director, Kate Schaefers, onto the podcast. So thank you, Kate.

Kate: (01:01)

Yes, thanks for having me.

Sue: (01:02)

So Kate, in addition to directing the Midlife Academy, she is also the director of the Osher Lifelong Learning Institute, which is a learning community for those 50 and beyond. She also has extensive experience in the areas of lifelong learning, midlife transitions, and career development. She's also served as executive director of the University of Minnesota's Advanced Careers Initiative, which is like a gap year for experienced professionals transitioning to really meaningful post-career lives.

She also serves on the AARP Minnesota Executive Council, the University of Minnesota's Age-Friendly University Council, and is co-chair of the Nexel Collaborative, which is a higher ed consortium really focused on serving this new demographic of learners. So thank you so much, Kate.

We are so excited to talk with you today and we hope by the end of our discussion, viewers and listeners will be able to really walk away with an understanding of what the Midlife Academy is, what's really special about this transition, maybe why universities are getting involved and hopefully you can give us some practical advice when we find ourselves in this transition period.

Just to start, Kate, we always like to ask our guests a little bit more of a personal story. So we're curious really what led you into this field of midlife and advanced career transitions and how has your understanding of the field really changed over time?

Kate: (02:29)

I think like a lot of people, came about this work through personal experience. when I was in my forties, so right smack at that, you know, midlife by definition had two little kids. My husband was traveling for work. I had a job that I loved, but I just felt like I wasn't able to juggle everything the way I wanted to juggle things. And then

My husband and I became a caregiver of a family member. And it just was too much. And so I stepped away from a job I loved to try to build something that was more flexible. And that caregiving role really opened my eyes to just older adults and how we undervalue what they bring, their talents. And so I really felt this calling to help connect older adults with opportunities to give back to their community.

So that is really what drew me in of just how do we tap the talent of this generation? And through a roundabout way, I found this organization called Encore.org, which is now CoGenerate. And it focused on helping people 50 plus shift into meaningful work in the second half of life and finding that social impact work. And that's really been a cornerstone of a lot of what I've done.

After leaving that job, then I worked as a consultant and as a, psychologist as well, but as a coach, a leadership coach and a career coach. And so I was working in that space of older workers and helping people transition. And I also just was seeing that there's just been such a tremendous need as the world has shifted for people at midlife and beyond to find their way, but there aren't a lot of roadmaps. Seeing this need out there for people to help them navigate this life stage that may be different from how their parents navigated it.

Sue: (04:09)

Thanks for that. And you mentioned roadmap So tell me a little bit about this need What are you seeing in terms of the needs that were really going unaddressed that the Academy may now address?

Kate: (04:19)

Yeah. Well, I think some of them come from the workplace and just some of the shifts we've seen. we used to look at our lives and planning our lives around what was called the three boxes of life. So we have the early stage, which is we learn. And so we go to school and maybe go to college, find training if we're not going to college. But we develop some skills. Then we work for our career, and then we retire and it's, you one decision, a leisure retirement, we're done.

And what has happened because of so many shifts around the workplace, those models don't fit. They're not necessarily wanting just this model of just, you know, learn, earn, and then leisure. But they're also finding that they can't rely on an education they got when they were 18 to 22 that's not going to be able to help them navigate the world of work today because that learning has to continue across our life. So what we're seeing is people are living lives where they're in the workplace. They might be stepping out to retool, go back to school. They might be caregiving. So they're downshifting.

We have to be recalibrating our lives at various points. And there's just not a lot of models for how to do that. It's kind of a do it yourself situation. And I will also say for a lot of people, people feel like it's something in them. Like it's a personal problem. I just need to be more efficient.

I'm feeling burnt out. I just need to get energy. just, I just need to buck up and make it happen. And I think what we overlook when we try to look at just improving ourselves is that it's our systems that are not necessarily fitting and our expectations around those systems and the way we structure work that, you know, jobs are full-time jobs. You know, it's hard to find a like meaningful, skill-based, professional part-time job. I mean, our benefits are tied to full-time jobs. So

We haven't restructured the way that we work to fit with how we're living our lives.

Midlife is a time when we really see a confluence of so many shifts happening to us. have, know, if for those of us that had children, you know, our children are entering new stages, maybe we're experiencing empty nest. So, you know, we're opening up possibilities for new options. Caregiving is a big piece of it. Our careers may have plateaued. We're going through physical changes, especially for women.

We've got all of these changes going on, but everyone is going through aging and that process and realizing that what worked when we were young isn't necessarily going to take us into the next stage. So there's a lot of questions about: What do you want this next stage to look like? And we're figuring out on our own just how we recraft and recalibrate our lives so that they're better fit for what we need in that life stage.

Raakhee: (07:15)

It reminds me financially, we in a period of so much change and flux in the world and how we earn and how we save.

So I think even just the concept of how one would have saved or had the financial backing for retirement has changed. And and Kate, think Sue and I being probably in that different camp of more women having kids after 40, you know, and kind of fitting into that bucket as well. And that being so interesting because people are at so many different life stages just within that group of 40 plus, 50 plus doing such different things as well.

Kate: (07:50)

Yes, they could have an infant or they could have a kid going off to college or maybe no children. So yes, the life situation, when we talk about midlife, we're not just a homogeneous group of people in this life stage. It's a life stage. We come about it in different ways. We experience it in different ways. But there's some commonalities that change is a big piece of it.

Sue: (08:10)

Just a lot of things that are resonating with us as we've talked about so many of these issues as it relates to confronting how the workplace is changing, how family lives are changing,

One reason why we really wanted you on the podcast is this issue you raised about it being just maybe a personal issue versus a systemic issue. And it was great to see a university launch an academy like this. So tell me more about the academy. What is it like? What was the decision process for the university to actually launch something like this?

Kate: (08:43)

Yeah, so I'd like to back up and just talk about that this is a growing trend, although it's still pretty nascent of universities being places to host these kinds of things. And part of it is because universities have all the building blocks for these kinds of programs. know, when you think about, you know, a typical 18 year old, let's say going off to college, they're going to, you know, explore different opportunities, they're going to learn about different

careers, they're going to make friends, they're going to learn about themselves, and they're asking the question of what do I want to do with the rest of my life? Well, someone in their 40s and 50s, they're asking that same question. And some are saying, you know, I might want to just make some tweaks to my life. Others are saying this life is not what I want at all. I want to I really want to go in a different direction, whether it is a career direction or a meaningful volunteer role.

But there's some of those shifts that happen. And universities, we're used to doing these things. We have all of the things in place. It's just reassembling them in a way that is addressing the needs of this specific demographic, because they are somewhat different.

Some of these programs have started that they're focused very intergenerationally. So they're placing older adults in the classroom with young adults. And one of the things that happens when you do this is that you realize like we make such a big deal about generational conflict and all the things that we don't share. when you put people in the classroom talking about things that matter,

All of those things disappear and you learn from each other and you learn, you know, that we all are people and we all have similar dreams and, and yes, we can learn some specific things from each other that the lens that a young adult brings to an older adult can enhance how we see the world. the conversations I've had with people in our university has been how impressed they are with young adults and their passion and their knowledge and just how engaged they are, especially around things like social issues. And so there's this respect that happens. And similarly, I think some respect that comes for the older adult So universities, we are seeing a growth in this.

There are really very successful programs out there. Stanford, Harvard, Notre Dame, University of Texas, Austin, all have very successful programs. And now University of Chicago launched a program and they are all doing really well. But they're all a model of residential programs, meaning that people come to their campus for nine months. They are embedded in the classroom.

So it's an amazing transformative year. I think where we're seeing some innovation coming is trying to figure out how to experiment with these models that might be shorter and can have greater reach beyond the people who can uproot their lives and move a community and live there for nine months and be like a student. I want a commuter program instead of a residential program. We're a public university, so we serve the people of Minnesota. Working adults are busy, they don't have to uproot their whole lives. And then also at a price point that may be more affordable, so people can participate and do this work even if they're not able to uproot their lives for nine months.

Sue: (12:05)

That makes sense to really see what options are available. Because as Raakhee said, it's just there's so many different kinds of stages people are in and something will hopefully fit for the person seeking some kind of transition support. yeah, I'm curious, how is the Midlife Academy going? Tell us a little bit more about maybe what you might experience when you're going through this.

Kate: (12:27)

Yes, well, I will say we are new. So we have our first class that is wrapping up today, actually. And it was Cultivating Purpose. And the class was full. We had 25 learners in there. And it was amazing. But all of the feedback I'm hearing, and we did like a mid-cycle feedback, was just how transformative it is. And there's just something amazing that happens when you gather with other people who are going through similar thoughts in their heads or just similar ideas to voice what you're feeling and just get validation for that. And also not only validation, but also a new lens to see things and also new connections. expanding your network beyond your existing network. So you're meeting new people. They know people that they can connect you up with for informational interviews or to find out more about different directions you might take people who have already walked this path before you.

You get support from other people. You get people who serve as a mirror for you, a new lens of hearing what you're saying and really deeply hearing that, and then also connections that they bring.

It meets in person on campus. It's after work. So people come, it's five to eight. So people come after work and we have enough structure and a lot of interaction time, so some reflection. we're launching also our second class, which is Next Chapter Reset, which is a little bit more like, OK, now what am I going to do?

Action-oriented, like trying things out, experimenting with different things. Our vision is to keep building new courses that all address different pieces of midlife and then just doing that supportive wraparound with it, like creating a community and offering opportunities for people to connect with that community throughout this whole process for them.

Raakhee: (14:24)

After these eight weeks, have there been some interesting pivots you've seen in people's mindsets about, you know, when they started their journey and now eight weeks later and how they're thinking about their own midlife transitions?

Kate: (14:38)

Our, course instructor, Megan, she asked, you know, what is great about midlife? And people had a hard time answering it, because so much of our framing is it's a crisis or, you know, it's you're getting older, like there's so much cultural understanding of midlife, you know, and that was described as a gift, to step back and say, well, wait a second, there are some good things about this time of life. And how do I lean into those things? And how do I take what I understand from those things and look at building out more of that? So I would say that's a big aha. I think the aha, too, is that you have to have it figured out to start.

And I think the research is really also pretty clear that you can do a lot of reflection, but it's really easy to get stuck in reflection. Because if you're trying to find the perfect answer, like what is the perfect change in my life that's going to solve my problems, it's going to keep you from ever taking that first step. And the research supports that sometimes you just,

If you know directionally, just start walking. Take a baby step. Maybe don't quit your job yet, but do a little experiment. And then you may find out that that experiment is really engaging, and so do another one.

And so recognizing that it's really hard to know what you're going to like unless you try something. So finding those little experiments, try something out, shift some of the people that you're with, that you're connecting with, and just try on a new hat. And if the hat fits, then look for more hats like that.

If it doesn't, then toss it aside and it's okay. You don't have to have it figured out to get started.

Raakhee: (16:27)

Yeah, I love that. And Sue, it reminds me, we've spoken about this in the past as well, but also in the service of creativity and play and just bringing that into our lives, particularly in midlife, where we start to lose that sense of naivety even with things.

Kate: (16:44)

Whimsy. I mean, all of those things. Yes. Yeah, I do think I mean, midlife. So you look at happiness curve, right? And like, where are people? They tend to be the lowest in their happiness. And it tends to be midlife, you know, and so happiness tends to increase as we get older, which is paradoxical, because we think, well, you know, as we get older, our bodies are, you know, maybe not able to do as much. But that midlife is when we tend to be so busy with so many demands.

Oftentimes maybe neglecting ourselves, even neglecting some of those relationships that are so important to us. And so recognizing that we need to also do self-care throughout this whole process and look at, you know, what brings me joy? What brings whimsy into my life? Can I play, you know, can I play with an idea?

Sue: (17:33)

I love that and I also love that paired with the community that's being formed because we've also talked about, mean the loneliness epidemic spans all ages at this point, but in midlife when you can be fearful of what comes next and this kind of notion that you can't experiment at this point, it's so important to have some partners that can do it with you and alongside you.

Kate: (17:58)

Well, and I think too, you know, the pandemic changed us in fundamental ways. And, you know, I've seen articles about just how we've become comfortable being lonely.

We don't necessarily know how to create that community around us, and yet we need it, and we need to prioritize it.

Raakhee: (18:16)

When we think of some of these terms, the language used to date about the midlife crisis, right, being a crisis. Or even retirement has certain connotations. It shouldn't have, it doesn't have to, but we've made it that. And so when I see something like the Elder Academy. when you see some of those words, even though you might be in midlife, some of that terminology is just, I don't know, I guess I have questions around when do we change the language? How do we change the language? Because I think that'll be so powerful, right?

Kate: (18:49)

That is a brilliant question because you think about okay retirement You know what the image is that you leave the workplace and you know, bye. I'm not working again That's not how people are retiring. So it's it's like this paradoxical oxymoron, I'm retired but I'm working and that is more it's much more typical than it was previous generations and language is really important and

You know, we tend to have language around aging, like lumping everyone. If you're 65 and older, you're a senior citizen. And that connotates, you know, the image of a senior citizen is not necessarily how someone who's 65 may feel, or 85 for that matter. You know, like the language conveys an image of frailty.

AARP did some amazing, you know, walk like, a 60 year old or whatever, and they're using a cane and the image that comes to mind isn't fitting with how people are living today. So one of the professors that I worked with at the University of Minnesota, Professor Phyllis Moen, she's a sociologist and a life course sociologist. And she has been arguing that we need new language and frameworks to think about this as a new life stage. That it's not just even what we're calling people, but it's a new life stage. she likens it to the conversations and the shifts that happened around 1900 when we started talking about adolescence. know, before 1900, we didn't talk about adolescence as a life stage.

As we understood more about teenagers, we realized they're not children, but they're not adults. And then we started looking and we realized their brains aren't developed. And like we have a whole host of like psychological and sociological and physical dimensions that we've put around this life stage. And she thinks that we're seeing the same thing happen in the later stages because

When we look at longevity, the longevity is not necessarily those those bonus years are not necessarily coming at the end of life. Although for some people, you know, they may have long times of frailty. But for where you're really seeing the big change is the mid period that's after career and family building years and before frailty of old age. She's calling it encore adulthood. And she is putting all kinds of understanding around like, what does it mean? You know, it's people who are, you know, not young, but they're not old. And they, you know, they're starting new careers. They're entrepreneurs. Like they're, they're living a life that is very different from some of the images of the languages we have. And so she believes we really should be looking at this as a new life stage and studying it that way. And also creating opportunities for people to move into work that fits with Encore adulthood.

Yeah, she has a book out that came out in 2016 on this topic. It's called Encore adulthood, boomers on the edge of risk renewal and purpose. she studied boomers with that book, but as we see Gen X and then certainly the millennials coming into this life stage, I think a lot of these themes are just going to be amplified because you look at, you know, the whole financial situation of millennials compared to boomers, know, I mean, there's just a huge, millennials have faced a lot of headwinds when it comes to their finances, not only around, some of them coming into the workplace during a recession and getting underemployed and never breaking out of it, to high student loans and delayed milestones, you know, that, that may have defined previous generations, and maybe decisions not to do some of those things like having children or never buying a house or, you know, not feeling like some of those goals that used to be, expected as people kind of go lockstep through life stages.

And so when they're coming up to this, they're certainly not going to have the finances to fund a 30 year leisure retirement. So they're going to need to be looking at some of these alternatives. As our people today, as our boomers today, and as our Gen Xers, but I just think we're going to have more and more people in that situation.

Sue: (23:02)

That's right. can't remember, Raakhee, this was in the Stanford study, if this was actually in like a retirement fund study, but they had like little blocks representing every age of life. And you get through the major milestones as you talked about, and just this color block just increasing with nothing in it. And we were saying it's missing so much of what actually happens in your life to define this as sort of this void.

But it just showed that there is so much more life that is continuing on that that's why, you know, people need to fill this. There is this desire to fill it. And so, yeah, I'm really curious this actually, you you're talking about millennials as sort of the next generation that's moving into midlife. And, you know, we're a future focused podcast. So we're always thinking about what's happening in the next decade or two decades.

In an ideal world, if you're thinking about this in 10 years, what is that system of support or institutional support that might be helping people, the millennial generation, for instance, right, really working through this next chapter? Is there an ecosystem you'd love to see? How do they work together, whether it's university or workplaces, government, for instance?

Kate: (24:16)

You know, I think the first step is normalizing this, you know, that, you know, we still think about careers as being linear. And, you know, they're increasingly not. I mean, a lot of many, many people are not living linear careers. They're, they're more pivots and, you know, they're, they're moving in and out of different opportunities. And so I think maybe normalizing that and also helping people not only, develop the skills they're gonna need for some of the changes that are coming.

So we know we're all talking about AI and of course everyone's got to understand how do I use this as a tool and what do I bring that the machine can't and just trying to frame just how work is gonna get transformed through this period of time. But it's also how do we have the skill sets to navigate these transitions? Not only to stay ahead of the curve on some of the skill acquisition pieces that is going to be necessary.

but also how do we, you emotionally pivot and, and in career pivot, how do we make these pivots and normalizing the process of, you know what, I'm going to be in this job maybe a few years, but then I'm probably going to transition into something else. If I don't, the job itself is going to change. So how do I stay open, I guess, to continual learning and, getting support to do that. So my employer is going to help me do that, helping people understand like, do you make those big pivots? How do you fund big pivots? Who does that? That's another question.

I mean, there's some employers that do things like sabbaticals, not many anymore, but I think it's a really interesting idea or stretch assignments, or letting people move within the organization to new areas so that they can explore new directions that they may be perceiving as something that would be really engaging.

Sue: (26:11)

As you were talking, Kate, I was getting this just hopeful vision of the next 10 years, right? Where you can, whether it's in your workplace and you're going for a coffee, you can talk about, you know, are you going through this transition? What kind of training are you getting? Who do you speak to? Or you can actually sit down with your manager or sort of the head of people, right, to really talk about how can we support you in this journey, whether it's here or somewhere else?

What can we do? And to have that open conversation would just be, yeah, it would be such a relief to know that I'm not alone in something like this.

Kate: (26:44)

And I think for a lot of managers, helping them have the skills to have those conversations, I think would be a really smart thing for employers to do because we want our people to continue to grow and good people can shift within our organizations and still continue to contribute. But I think managers often don't necessarily know how to have those conversations. And so to be able to be open about, what are your goals and can we look at what's on your plate and recraft some things to give you some new experiences to experiment would be a wonderful thing for employees.

And employees want that. I mean, they want career opportunities when they, you when you ask, what are some of the most important things about your job? You know, they'll, they'll, they'll say, you know, like paying benefits. But when you look at like really what keeps people engaged, those are not like, those are baseline, right? It's really some of those other things like, you know, do they have a manager that they can connect with and be honest with?

Do they feel like they have career and growth opportunities? Are they supported in those things? You know, do they have a team that they like working together? Do they feel like they have a sense of purpose? Are they, you know, can they draw a line between something that they value and the work they're doing? It is a skill set and I think good managers learn how to do it, but we could probably do more to help them get those skills.

I think a creative employer would also allow an employee, I mean, not only to maybe step out of the workplace when they need to, know, caregiving, let's face it, is just going to be growing and growing. the, you know, especially when you look at people in that sandwich generation, I mean, it's not just caring for children, although that's a big piece and the scarcity of childcare is a huge issue and the expense of childcare.

But then increasingly we're seeing elder care responsibilities and there's not, mean, families are having to step up in big ways to help with that. so supporting those family caregivers is just so important for employers, but to allow people to maybe downshift in a job or maybe shift into part-time work for different periods of time or... there's like that stage where you want all the opportunities that can come and you want to grow and you're ready for them.

But then there's other times in our lives where maybe we don't want all that challenge. And to normalize that, it doesn't mean that you're not committed. It doesn't mean that you're not contributing at a high level. It just may mean that you've got a lot on your plate. allowing people to acknowledge that and contribute maybe in slightly different ways and be seen as a high performer and high potential. I think is, I mean, that's a major shift in our perception.

Sue: (29:29)

Kate, thank you so much for sharing just all your knowledge or expertise and guidance around here. It's certainly a lot of topics we've touched on today resonate with us. And as a last question, for those who are watching and listening what are maybe just two to three practical tips you might give them as they start thinking about this next chapter?

Kate: (29:50)

Yeah, one would be, don't go it alone. It's just too easy to get stuck in your head. we need, not only do we need other people, but we need to kind of think out loud as we're processing these things. And it just is so helpful to get other lenses to this and help us see things a little differently. And I'd also say, don't feel like you have to have it figured out.

Like just start somewhere, start small. can you shift maybe how you're doing your work to create more opportunities in your day so you can try something else?

And, and, and I would say to just take a risk. Like if you don't, if you fail, it's fine. Like who cares? Like it's, it's, you're still learning. Like, don't be so afraid. You have to kind of have it all perfectly figured out to even try something. And if you stumble, so what that's learning. That's how we learn. So don't be hard on yourself.

Sue: (30:49)

That's great advice. Thank you so much, Kate. Thank you so much for being on the show. And for those who are watching or listening, if you have any questions or comments, leave a message for us on our YouTube channel. But as always, thank you for watching, and we will see you next time.